Analysis Swap: Alushi

[Flavia]

I arrive to the village a short while after the other travelers. I let my wings rest for a moment, then I join the conversation.

umm... ibiklu laap ukya Mariasan, kahiþra.

[Arayaz]

(I would cleanly join the narrative but Danté can't be late to everything so i'm gonna ask we Just Act Like He Was Here The Whole Time And Was Just Listening Creepily From A Distance™.)
"Ah, Ibiklu laap ukya Dantésan. Kahiþra."

I arrive to the village a short while after the other travelers. I let my wings rest for a moment, then I join the conversation.

umm... ibiklu laap ukya Mariasan, kahiþra.

"11) Hay, Dantés ... hay, Marias." Suhakkan chuckles. "That's not quite how you'd use kahiþra ─ I was talking to Trailsend over here about that. But ─ 12) ukyaklu slaaha muryo? Ipshiþmi?"

Edit: Added numbers.

[Trailsend]

(Sorry friends, I need to use you for an experiment XD )

I nod. "Ibi, Dantés, Marias...otaklu slaaha ipshimi."

[Arayaz]

(Sorry friends, I need to use you for an experiment XD )

I nod. "Ibi, Dantés, Marias...otaklu slaaha ipshimi."

"Kahiþra," says Suhakkan. 13) "Ibiklu khayh ukya," he says, gesturing for you to follow him as he walks down what seems to be a well-trodden path.


This seems to be my 888th post in the Conlangs subforum!

Edit: Added numbers.

[Trailsend]

"Kahiþra," says Suhakkan. "Ibiklu khayh ukya," he says, gesturing for you to follow him as he walks down what seems to be a well-trodden path.

Spoiler:

Using otaklu worked!!



Incredibly, I feel better about that "You all call me" / "We call you" / "We call them" idea from before!

It seems like:

ibi, first person singular
ota, first person plural
ham, second person singular
ukya, second person plural
ko, third person singular
???, third person plural?

Also seems pretty clearly like -klu isn't a possessive marker, or at least isn't usually a possessive marker. I think I was misanalyzing Ibiklu laap as "my name", when it was really something more like "I am called...".

But, there's still Ko taa ibiklu bishaa, "This is my wife." -klu seems pretty clearly possessive there.

In most other appearances though...it almost seems like it could be a subject marker, like in Ukyaklu slaaha muryo?, "Do you all want anything", or just now in Ibiklu khayh ukya ("I'll take you", maybe?).

Counterpoint: Kahiþra, haayashin ibi, "I'll go get it"?? Ibi, not Ibiklu, here. The contrast between this and Ibiklu khayh ukya is interesting, not sure what to make of it yet.

Hmmmm. Hmmmmmm.

Maybe some of these are the other way around than I'm thinking.

Maybe -klu is a direct object marker (which doubles, at times, as a possessive marker), and the general sentence structure is OVS.

You'd have:

Ibiklu laap ukya Suhakkanan
ibi-klu laap ukya-Ø Suhakkan-an
1-OBJ call 2p-SUBJ Suhakkan-??
My name is Suhakkan. (lit.: "You all call me Suhakkan.")

Ukyaklu slaaha muryo?
ukya-klu slaaha muryo-Ø
2p-OBJ is_wanted_by what-SUBJ
Do you all want anything?

This would mean slaaha marks the person feeling the want as its object, and the desired thing as its subject.

Haayashin ibi-Ø
fetch? 1s-SUBJ
I'll get it (?? not confident in this translation)

Ibiklu khayh ukya.
ibi-klu khayh ukya-Ø
1s-OBJ follow 2p-SUBJ
Follow me.

Sentences like Aw taa ipshi and Ko taa ibiklu bishaa can be accounted for if we say taa is a copula that marks both its arguments as subjects, thus nothing gets -klu.

This...actually feels like it fits, maybe? It resolves the Haayashin ibi vs. Ibiklu khayh ukya contrast cleanly. Except for one thing:

Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?
ham-klu slaaha ipshi-mi
2s-OBJ is_wanted_by water-???
Do you want water?

What the goshdang heck is that -mi for?? If this analysis is correct, subjects are unmarked, except in this one case where suddenly there's a -mi suffix, and I have no idea why.

What do y'all think? Can you think of a way to account for the -mi in Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?

Or better yet, is there some other way to account for what we're seeing with -klu that doesn't have this problem?

(Do you want me to go back and add numbers to all the Alushi sentences?)

(that might be very helpful actually )

[Arayaz]

"Kahiþra," says Suhakkan. "Ibiklu khayh ukya," he says, gesturing for you to follow him as he walks down what seems to be a well-trodden path.

Spoiler:

Using otaklu worked!!



Incredibly, I feel better about that "You all call me" / "We call you" / "We call them" idea from before!

It seems like:

ibi, first person singular
ota, first person plural
ham, second person singular
ukya, second person plural
ko, third person singular
???, third person plural?

Also seems pretty clearly like -klu isn't a possessive marker, or at least isn't usually a possessive marker. I think I was misanalyzing Ibiklu laap as "my name", when it was really something more like "I am called...".

But, there's still Ko taa ibiklu bishaa, "This is my wife." -klu seems pretty clearly possessive there.

In most other appearances though...it almost seems like it could be a subject marker, like in Ukyaklu slaaha muryo?, "Do you all want anything", or just now in Ibiklu khayh ukya ("I'll take you", maybe?).

Counterpoint: Kahiþra, haayashin ibi, "I'll go get it"?? Ibi, not Ibiklu, here. The contrast between this and Ibiklu khayh ukya is interesting, not sure what to make of it yet.

Hmmmm. Hmmmmmm.

Maybe some of these are the other way around than I'm thinking.

Maybe -klu is a direct object marker (which doubles, at times, as a possessive marker), and the general sentence structure is OVS.

You'd have:

Ibiklu laap ukya Suhakkanan
ibi-klu laap ukya-Ø Suhakkan-an
1-OBJ call 2p-SUBJ Suhakkan-??
My name is Suhakkan. (lit.: "You all call me Suhakkan.")

Ukyaklu slaaha muryo?
ukya-klu slaaha muryo-Ø
2p-OBJ is_wanted_by what-SUBJ
Do you all want anything?

This would mean slaaha marks the person feeling the want as its object, and the desired thing as its subject.

Haayashin ibi-Ø
fetch? 1s-SUBJ
I'll get it (?? not confident in this translation)

Ibiklu khayh ukya.
ibi-klu khayh ukya-Ø
1s-OBJ follow 2p-SUBJ
Follow me.

Sentences like Aw taa ipshi and Ko taa ibiklu bishaa can be accounted for if we say taa is a copula that marks both its arguments as subjects, thus nothing gets -klu.

This...actually feels like it fits, maybe? It resolves the Haayashin ibi vs. Ibiklu khayh ukya contrast cleanly. Except for one thing:

Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?
ham-klu slaaha ipshi-mi
2s-OBJ is_wanted_by water-???
Do you want water?

What the goshdang heck is that -mi for?? If this analysis is correct, subjects are unmarked, except in this one case where suddenly there's a -mi suffix, and I have no idea why.

What do y'all think? Can you think of a way to account for the -mi in Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?

Or better yet, is there some other way to account for what we're seeing with -klu that doesn't have this problem?

(Soon, I trust, you'll be fully klu'd in to the true workings of the system . I hope you'll forgive mi then. )

(Do you want me to go back and add numbers to all the Alushi sentences?)

(that might be very helpful actually )

(done )

[Kesshin]

Spoiler:

What do y'all think? Can you think of a way to account for the -mi in Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?

It could be a gender marker on "water". It could be a gender system only on concrete nouns or something? Until now there hasn't been anything specifically referred to.

As Danté follows him, he points to a plant on the ground.
taa muryo?

[_Just_A_Sketch]

Spoiler:

What do y'all think? Can you think of a way to account for the -mi in Hamklu slaaha ipshimi?

It could be a gender marker on "water". It could be a gender system only on concrete nouns or something? Until now there hasn't been anything specifically referred to.
As Danté follows him, he points to a plant on the ground.
taa muryo?

It could have something to do with water being a mass noun.
There could also be some sort of inverse case system here, Arayaz is quite fond of them from what I've seen, although I haven't dug deep enough into Alushi to say for sure.

[Arayaz]

As Danté follows him, he points to a plant on the ground.
taa muryo?

14) "Taa uftan," he says. (The plant, by the way, is a fern.)

[Trailsend]

I stop by the fern and kneel down, closing my fist around the stems where they meet the soil, like I'm about to yank it out of the ground.

Suhakkan, hamklu slaaha uftanmi?

[Arayaz]

I stop by the fern and kneel down, closing my fist around the stems where they meet the soil, like I'm about to yank it out of the ground.

Suhakkan, hamklu slaaha uftanmi?

15) "Ibiklu slaaha uftanma?" he says. "Hawþ." This second utterance is accompanied by a jerk of the head up and to his left. 16) "Ham hawþ þwahyan," he advises, gesturing in your direction.

[Solarius]

I come along as well.

Ibiklu laap ukya Solan! I'm excited to speak with you all!

[Arayaz]

I come along as well.

Ibiklu laap ukya Solan! I'm excited to speak with you all!

"Hay, Sol!" says Suhakkan. 17) "Ham kahi Trailsendan, Visionsan, Mariasan, Dantésan? Ukya khayffin?"

[Flavia]

Spoiler:

Ibiklu khaykh ukya should be 1sg-klu verb 2pl. Maybe "come with me"?
I have a theory: Sketch said Arayaz likes direct-inverse systems... -klu could be an animate object AND possessive marker, while -mi is for inanimate subjects (as Trailsend said this is probably how slaaha works). There's something I want to try...

I point to my hat.
Aw taa muryo?

[Trailsend]

Spoiler:

Ibiklu khaykh ukya should be 1sg-klu verb 2pl. Maybe "come with me"?
I have a theory: Sketch said Arayaz likes direct-inverse systems... -klu could be an animate object AND possessive marker, while -mi is for inanimate subjects (as Trailsend said this is probably how slaaha works). There's something I want to try...

Note that (15) had uftan-ma instead of uftan-mi. Could be a declension thing? Maybe the inanimate subject ending is -ma on some words and -mi on others?

Ooooh I like where you're going!

[Arayaz]

Spoiler:

Ibiklu khaykh ukya should be 1sg-klu verb 2pl. Maybe "come with me"?
I have a theory: Sketch said Arayaz likes direct-inverse systems... -klu could be an animate object AND possessive marker, while -mi is for inanimate subjects (as Trailsend said this is probably how slaaha works). There's something I want to try...

I point to my hat.
Aw taa muryo?

(Could you describe your hat for me?)

Spoiler:

Eeeee, it's fun to see y'all's analysis taking shape! *excited Arayaz noises*

[Flavia]

Spoiler:

Ibiklu khaykh ukya should be 1sg-klu verb 2pl. Maybe "come with me"?
I have a theory: Sketch said Arayaz likes direct-inverse systems... -klu could be an animate object AND possessive marker, while -mi is for inanimate subjects (as Trailsend said this is probably how slaaha works). There's something I want to try...

I point to my hat.
Aw taa muryo?

(Could you describe your hat for me?)

Spoiler:

Eeeee, it's fun to see y'all's analysis taking shape! *excited Arayaz noises*

(Let's say it's similar to this)

[Arayaz]

I point to my hat.
Aw taa muryo?

(Could you describe your hat for me?)

(Let's say it's similar to this)

Suhakkan furrows his brow. 18) "Ibi ... hawþ kahiyan." He pauses. 19) "Awklu laap ham muryon?"

[Flavia]

I point to my hat.
Aw taa muryo?

(Could you describe your hat for me?)

(Let's say it's similar to this)

Suhakkan furrows his brow. 18) "Ibi ... hawþ kahiyan." He pauses. 19) "Awklu laap ham muryon?"

Spoiler:

I think it's
1sg not know
dem-klu call 2sg what-something

Awklu laap ibi "yosicatenner".

[Arayaz]

Awklu laap ibi "yosicatenner".

"Yosicatenner," Suhakkan repeats. "Hm. You'd say 'awklu laap ibi yosicatenneran,' by the way. It sounds wrong to just say 'yosicatenner.'"

By this time, you've reached a running river. 20) "Owammak yashin ota ipshi," he says, filling his own waterskin.