Conreligions

[Pe King]

you've taken all of this out of context! Read it and it is clearly not what that video shows grow up. Humanity is messed up this include me. I didn't make this so that we could bicker and bitch over real religions. All that I wanted was to be able to discuss could be religions that would go into society not the real stuff.

[Micamo]

Now I wanna make a conpeople that worships Krov's beard.

[jseamus]

you've taken all of this out of context! Read it and it is clearly not what that video shows grow up.

An oldy but a goody.

BTW Pe King, I have read the Bible probably more than you've read anything, period. The devil can quote scripture, and I can one up the devil, so please do not insult both our intelligences by pretending that all the inconsistencies and atrocities of the Bible will just disappear in the mystical light of "context."

At least when I was a Calvinist I had the self consistency to admit that the god I worshiped was not good by any common definition. I understood the Bible (because I had read it) and so I didn't try and make excuses. When atheists said "Your god is a murderer," I said "Yes. He has every right to be a murderer. He is God and we are less than fiction to Him."

Self consistency is good. Try it out.

[Pe King]

Maybe it should be a society of lice. The winter equivlent would be an annual shave. Mass migration to the top. Or two different cultures were the lice at the summit would think they are higher than the beardovians. They would have slight control over him and this would be how he got his personality.

Got to love it krov

[Pe King]

God is no murder. Am I a murder every time I toss a drawing because that is all we really are in God's eyes. So please don't call him a murder. He created us. We didn't create him (stop laughing MrKrov.) Who are we a mere pawn life to say kiss my donkey (metaphore) to the king, creator, lord and eternal ENDER? I am saved. Pease be born agian (I SAID SHUTTUP MRKROV).

[Trailsend]

I appreciate your sincerity Pe King, but--

Pease be born agian (I SAID SHUTTUP MRKROV).

--are you trying to induce a Road-to-Damascus moment here? Some (possibly most, certainly not all, but definitely some) of the folks here have read the book, and read it thoroughly, and they've thought these things through with care. Reiterating your youth group's theology and asking nicely for conversions isn't really going to cut it. If you really want to change people, meet them where they're at, demonstrate that you are really, truly listening to them, and be willing to actually engage with their ideas and objections rather than just looping over your own beliefs again and again.


In other news, I've become confused as to the original intent of the thread. Are we talking about religions that would be feasible in some society, or religions that we would like to see practiced in our society, or that merely could be seriously practiced in our real-world society (whatever that is), or...?

[MrKrov]

I'm a little "wut" to how I've been mentioned in the last couple hours in this thread. wut wut wut

Originally a conreligion that could easily be made into a real world religion so presumably whatever you mean by

or that merely could be seriously practiced in our real-world society

[Wanderer]

He is God and we are less than fiction to Him.

I don't think you understand the bible very well.

8-)





Also, what kind of Calvinism were you into?

[jseamus]

He is God and we are less than fiction to Him.

I don't think you understand the bible very well.

8-)

Admittedly, that was a personal opinion, not a Bible quote. But it was a personal opinion based on a synthesis of my biblical understanding and the hardline rationalism I was into at the time. If you need Bible quotes demonstrating that God (at least as he is portrayed some of the time) has very little regard for humanity, please click on the "spoiler" button to see just a few of the gems.

Spoiler:

Romans 9:18-21 (Amplified Bible) "(18) So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
(19) You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?
(20) But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
(21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"

Isaiah 45:9 (Amplified Bible) "Woe to him who strives with his Maker!--a worthless piece of broken pottery among other pieces equally worthless [and yet presuming to strive with his Maker]! Shall the clay say to him who fashions it, What do you think you are making? or, Your work has no handles?"

Jeremiah 18:4-6 (Amplified Bible) "(4) And the vessel that he was making from clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he made it over, reworking it into another vessel as it seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the Lord came to me:
(6) O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does? says the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel."

Of course there are the contradictory passages, most famous among them the one about the sparrows and the grass. But what would the Bible be if it weren't contradicting itself?

Also, what kind of Calvinism were you into?

The five-pointy kind. At the later stage of my Christianity, I began drifting away from the Evangelical orthodox view of God as a benign being, but I retained just about everything else. Essentially, I was a Christian who had come to admit the power of the argument from evil.

God is no murder. Am I a murder every time I toss a drawing because that is all we really are in God's eyes. So please don't call him a murder. He created us. We didn't create him (stop laughing MrKrov.) Who are we a mere pawn life to say kiss my donkey (metaphore) to the king, creator, lord and eternal ENDER? ...

Good job, Pe King. You're already starting to be more self consistent. I'm guessing this was supposed to be a denial of what I said, but it doesn't read that way. Except for the first line, you are saying essentially what I used to, and that's no accident. it is remarkable how similar your statement was to the passages I mention above. Good for you.

What James said: "When atheists said "Your god is a murderer," I said "Yes. He has every right to be a murderer. He is God and we are less than fiction to Him."
What Pe King said: "God is no murder. Am I a murder every time I toss a drawing because that is all we really are in God's eyes."

So really you are just disagreeing about the definition of "murderer." You say that God is not a murderer when he arbitrarily kills humans, I say he is. But we both agree that he does arbitrarily kill humans and that he looks on us as disposable, something to be crumpled up and tossed away. You apparently have no problem with this, and neither did I wen I was a Christian. It was just what I believed.

But then I went through a crisis of reason, confronting various philosophical arguments I had never been exposed to as a child or young teen. I came out the other side a much more skeptical guy, and I began to reject pretty much everything I believed up to that point. I didn't replace it with anything, I just discarded it. I was pretty much a nihilistic skeptic for a few months.

Of course, nihilism is not for slackers. It's hard work, and highly counterproductive at that. I eventually found I just couldn't handle the pressure of constantly doubting and disbelieving and not caring, so I toned down the skepticism and nihilism to manageable levels and slowly transformed into the mildly indifferent, empiricist you see represented in ASCII before you.

You too could try empiricism, and then decide based on its observed results. Or you could just continue believing that believing will be all you need. Your choice.

[Wanderer]

Admittedly, that was a personal opinion, not a Bible quote. But it was a personal opinion based on a synthesis of my biblical understanding and the hardline rationalism I was into at the time. If you need Bible quotes demonstrating that God (at least as he is portrayed some of the time) has very little regard for humanity, please click on the "spoiler" button to see just a few of the gems.

Though I cannot deny some passages in the bible suggest such, the central message of the bible is that God send His Son to be crucified for our sins so that we might have eternal life through faith. This cannot be combined with a view wherein God doesn't care about humanity: why would God sacrifice His Son for 'less than fiction'?

There are plenty of things in the bible I can't make heads and tails of, including some of the things discussed earlier in this thread. I'm not going to pretend that I understand why God acts as He did in some of the biblical accounts discussed in this thread, I'm not going to pretend context solves everything, nor am I going to pretend I understand why God acting as such is supposed to be moral and good.

However, I am certaintly not turning away from my faith because there are a few ambiguous bible passages. The central message of the bible seems awfully clear and true to me and I shall continue to live my life by that good news.

I can certainly understand your troubles though, I have them too.

8-)

Of course there are the contradictory passages, most famous among them the one about the sparrows and the grass. But what would the Bible be if it weren't contradicting itself?

I think sometimes when the bible seemingly contradicts itself, we fail to see the third option, namely that both claims are true. For example some guy once came up to me and said that the bible both claims that God is pleased with His creation and that He isn't. It is my belief both are true. God created mankind and was pleased and loved and still loves His creation. However, God is not blind to the fallen state of humanity thus He also sees His creation has utterly failed to live up to His expectations. It is my belief that when God looks upon humanity He feels both the inherent love the Creator has for His creation and the contempt for mankinds failure.

(That wasn't particularly relevant to the general discussion in this thread, but it was just a thought that popped up in my head )

8-)

[jseamus]

Wanderer, believe me when I say I have been on both sides of this discussion so many times it sickens me. I know what the Bible says and I know how Christians interpret it and try and resolve it. All that really doesn't matter to me much anymore. It's less productive than arguing with Harry Potter fans.

What is key here is that you believe that an ancient book is true and infallible, that you follow the teachings of this book even though you admit you don't always understand it. You believe in and worship the god described in this book even though you admit you don't always see how his actions or commands are right or good.

That is what I have a problem with. That is what I care about. Why do you pay any attention to this book? Why do you put so much effort into trying to resolve its contradictions? Why do you believe? Have you seen some conclusive demonstration that this book is indeed infallible? Can you show me evidence that would stand up to scrutiny?

If not, I ask you, why bother to follow a book (no matter how old and venerable) if it is just a bunch words, with no support in reality? You might as well devote yourself to interpreting and following the teachings of Lewis Carrol.

And please don't deflect by questioning the validity of some scientific theory like biological evolution or Big Bang cosmology. If you really want to know why I accept the ideas I do, ask me, but only after you've supported the ideas you accept.

BTW, any future serious discussion of this kind (though, I doubt there will be any) should probably take place in a separate thread in Everything Else. It's mostly my fault that this thread has been hijacked as long as it has, and for that I apologize.

[Pe King]

All I can say is that I believe because I believe. The bible is what I grew up with as a child and that is what I will stick with. I wish that I could say that I live without doubt. But I don't.
In response to the murder bit a new metaphore. Humanity is a body. This body has cells (indavidual people.) Some of the cells turn into cancer (sinfull people sodom & gomora) he removed the cancer. God would simply sacrafice his son in order to save the rest of the body, his son still lived. thank you wanderer

[Pe King]

Oh I am a true believer. Despite "sticking to the bible, & having doubt" And no it is multiple peoples fault mine inluded. But apology accepted.You still have some Christian in you.

[Trailsend]

BTW, any future serious discussion of this kind (though, I doubt there will be any) should probably take place in a separate thread in Everything Else.

:)

[Pe King]

:) what?

[Ainuke]

What the hell happened to this thread?

[jseamus]

Evil skepticism happened to this thread. Hide your children.

Which makes me wonder, could a hyper-skeptical religion work? I don't mean a religion that used scientific thinking and moderate skepticism, but one that went all out, like Academic skepticism. That would be pretty funny.

Dogma: Nothing can be known, not even this.

[Bristel]

Evil skepticism happened to this thread. Hide your children.

Which makes me wonder, could a hyper-skeptical religion work? I don't mean a religion that used scientific thinking and moderate skepticism, but one that went all out, like Academic skepticism. That would be pretty funny.

Dogma: Nothing can be known, not even this.

That exists, it is called solipsism... Nothing outside of your own mind can be known for certain.

[Ossicone]

Evil skepticism happened to this thread. Hide your children.

Which makes me wonder, could a hyper-skeptical religion work? I don't mean a religion that used scientific thinking and moderate skepticism, but one that went all out, like Academic skepticism. That would be pretty funny.

Dogma: Nothing can be known, not even this.

That exists, it is called solipsism... Nothing outside of your own mind can be known for certain.

Funny, because I generally feel the thing people know the least is their own minds.

[jseamus]

Dogma: Nothing can be known, not even this.

That exists, it is called solipsism... Nothing outside of your own mind can be known for certain.

I know about solipsism, but that is not what I was referring to. Whereas solipsism claims that either nothing but the subject exists or nothing but the subject can be known, this religion would simply claim that nothing can be known. Truth (and external reality) may exist, but it is unknowable. The Academic skeptics and Pyrrhonists were of this persuasion. I practiced something like naive Pyrrhonism for a while, almost to the point of religion. I never had much luck convincing anyone to join me, but I was wondering if any truly skeptical religion could work.